In addition to this week's blog, I also wish to call your attention to my first foray into podcasting. Wes Bertrand, (author, psychologist, and podcast host) had me join him as a co-host on Episode 75 of the Complete Liberty Podcast. Wes describes the episode as discussing the evils of militaries, the psychology of identity, selfless statism, and recognizing truth.
You can download the show for free by clicking the following link to the iTunes Store
or
You can listen online by clicking here, or right-clicking to save the file to your computer.
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Although this may not seem to directly address the issue of the immorality of war, I believe it’s both related and relevant. I honestly think that the American military would be rendered impotent were it not for the forced labor of military personnel. Working at the Navy’s only boot camp, I regularly interact with individuals who wish to leave the military after experiencing it firsthand, but instead they are forced to continue to “train” against their will. Only days and weeks after joining the Navy, if given the opportunity, a significant percentage of those who signed “contracts” would undoubtedly leave after discovering the true nature of military “service.”
Considering that the vast majority of military personnel claim that they were lied to by their Recruiters, it would only make sense that after discovering these lies, they would not continue to work under the false pretenses under which those very “contracts” were signed. It’s only after weeks of indoctrination and de-individuation that such persons willingly continue to work or even reenlist.
This is why spreading the truth that the organization known as the Department of Defense uses slavery to carry out its wars is crucial to ending both war and involuntary servitude.
First, to rebut the claim that one cannot “transfer one’s self-ownership”. That begs the simple question: “Why can’t I?” The analogy of someone else animating your body is a false choice.
The empirical fact that someone else cannot animate your body is not a false choice but incontrovertible evidence that one cannot transfer her or his self-ownership. An individual may choose to direct her behavior to fulfill the wishes or desires of someone else, but she is no less in control of her body and mind and, therefore, no less a self-owner because she does this. The reality is that no matter how many contracts you sign or oaths you swear, you cannot have any less ownership in yourself (i.e. control over your mind and body).
Entering into a contract, in any degree, doesn’t imply the loss of all bodily or cognitive function.
I fully agree, and this only serves to further answer the first question of why you can’t transfer your self-ownership.
But to assert that one person, for whatever reason would not be able to choose to limit their choice, freedom or any number of things that binding oneself to a contract inherently implies is a horribly misguided sentiment. If the price was right, who is to say that I should not enter into a bond that said I must not speak about one specific thing for a given time? I think that Dan would assert that this would be separation “from your right to internally control your body”. But why couldn’t I limit myself, for awhile, if I were to choose? To assert that I couldn’t would infringe on my personal liberty and invalidate most, if not all, contracts. .
I did not, nor do I, assert that a person should be prohibited from being able to “choose to limit their choice, freedom” etc. so long as these limitations are self-imposed and self-enforced. I believe it would be absolutely wrong to try and force you to speak about something if you decided to refrain from speaking about “one specific thing for a given time.” However, it would be equally wrong to try and force you to stop saying something no matter what you may have signed or to whom you may have promised that you wouldn’t do so.
As an individual Jay has the right to say, or not say, anything on his own property because exercising this ability does not constitute the initiation of force against anyone else. However, if Jay were to sign a piece of paper promising that he wouldn’t make certain statements for a given period of time, such a document should not be viewed as an enforceable contract. I’m not advocating that Jay should be prevented from signing such a piece of paper but rather that he could not justly be penalized for failing to fulfill his promise.
The reason the hypothetical “no speech contract” cannot be justly enforced is because it involves no transfer of property and, therefore, no implicit theft if not fulfilled. Jay is incapable of transferring his right to speak because it is an inherent part of his self-ownership. Even if he signs a “contract” swearing that he will not speak about something, there is no transfer of this aspect of his self-ownership to the “receiving party.” Ultimately, Jay’s ability to speak whatever he wishes is an unalienable right.
If the “receiving party” in Jay’s contract transfers property ($1) to him in exchange for his promised future action (silence), then such property can be rightly understood to have been transferred conditionally and not absolutely. Should Jay fail to make good on his word, it would be implicit theft for him to keep the $1. What would be wrong, would be for the “receiving party” to duct tape Jay’s mouth shut or to confine him to a cage because he started talking. It is obvious then that if there were no transfer of property to Jay it would also be wrong for him to be forced to maintain his silence.
To directly answer Jay’s question of why he couldn’t limit himself from speaking for a while if he so chose, I would say that he is certainly welcome to do so, and I never implied otherwise. My assertion is that it would be wrong for someone to initiate the use of force against him for failing to live up to his promise.
However, the hallmark of true libertarianism is the mixture of eisegetic views of fanciful writings, the inability to look two steps ahead as well as a widespread failure to apply theories to the real world. “True Libertarianism” works in a world where true libertarians are gods. Dan’s excerpt of Rothbard’s work falls in line with my assertion. He overlooks (because it doesn’t fit with his world view, I suspect) the actual cost of a contract. Rothbard may have had an ethical book published. I doubt he did well in econ though.
That Jay expressed his doubt that Rothbard “did well in econ,” is an unfortunate example of shoving one’s foot deep into one’s mouth. Until his death in 1995, Murray Rothbard was in fact the preeminent economist of the Austrian School. He held a doctorate in the Philosophy of Economics from Columbia and was a distinguished professor at the University of Nevada. In addition to publishing numerous books on economics, he helped found the world center for Austrian Economics (Ludwig Von Mises Institute) as well as the scholarly journal “Review of Austrian Economics.” (Wikipedia: Murray Rothbard)
As for Jay’s claims of failing to apply ideas to the real world, I find this to be in direct contradiction to my condemnation and call for change to the very real world situation in which I’m forced to labor on behalf of others because of a past promise.
Simply put, contracts have both a cost and a price. What Rothbard and Dan both look at is the price. However, the cost may be far more. While an entity may offer pay for a given period in exchange for any number of things (work, silence, sex, whatever) they make the assumption that whatever problem they were trying to fix, or gap they were trying to fill, will be taken care of for that set amount of time. Thus, they can shift resources elsewhere.
The flaw in the thinking here seems to be in the idea that “If I am basically being paid as I go, me breaking the contract is ok. No harm, no foul.” That’s simply not the case. Reneging on a contract causes a shift in resources, time and personnel that the contract was designed to avoid for a set amount of time. This is the de facto theft that Rothbard cannot see. If not for future assurances, why make contracts at all? Thus, if Dan were to break his contract, it would be implicit theft.
Again, Jay fails to address the exchange of property that is essential to any justifiably enforceable contract. The fact that the expectations of people in the military would go unmet if I were to fail to fulfill my promise of labor cannot in any way be seen as my possessing any property that justly belongs to people in the military. Even though I signed such a promise in writing, it does not change the lack of property involved.
Jay is correct that the military might experience losses as a result of having decided to “shift resources elsewhere.” However, any such losses are always a risk when making predictions about human behavior, and they would not equate to theft on my part. If you doubt this, tell me what property belonging to the military I would possess if I were to stop working for them.
The analogy of the baseball player vs. the military is another false choice. I have known Dan for as long as I can remember. I know him to be an intelligent person. I cannot accept the argument that he didn’t know what he was getting into. To do so would imply wholesale ignorance on his part. The same goes for the baseball star. He knows the consequences of his actions when he signs on the dotted line. Dan did as well (as have I 3 times). Consequences are inherently a part of a contract and they vary. Given one’s place in history, indentured servitude could be an excellent option. But the argument of whether the cost was paid up front or in installments is paper thin. If Dan were to have received a bonus, would his arguments really be framed differently? I think not.
Jay does not explain what he means by saying that the analogy of the baseball player and the military is a false choice, so I cannot address this claim.
I’m glad that Jay doesn’t accept the argument that I didn’t know what I was getting into by signing a piece of paper promising to work for the military. I’m the only person who can truly answer as to whether or not I understood, and yet I would not accept this argument either. The fact that I did understand what I was doing when I signed those papers is never something that I have contested, and therefore, I’m unsure why Jay highlighted this truth.
If Jay was pointing this out for the purpose of arguing that a consequence is justified so long as someone understands beforehand what the consequence will be, then I vehemently disagree. I knew when I signed those papers that if I failed to fulfill my promise others would claim justification for imprisoning me. At the time, I agreed with this, but that neither made it right at the time, nor does it justify the threat of such action now that I properly understand it as enslavement.
My overall argument that I am currently enslaved would not be framed differently had I received a bonus tied to a set number of years of work. However, such a bonus would equate to the transfer of property, and therefore, as with Jay and his $1 received in exchange for silence, I would rightly transfer back any property I had conditionally received.
Although these clarifications are important to a proper understanding of what rightly constitutes a contract, it is irrelevant to my current circumstances. Unfortunately, those people identified as the military believe that I can rightfully be forced to fulfill my promise despite the fact that there would not be any implicit theft of property on my part if I were allowed to quit.
Dan’s lack of concern about his future employment adds nothing to this debate; it only shows that others may, whether they agree or disagree with him, find him hirable. The same goes for the persistence of taxes or the military. It has nothing to do with the debate (although everything to do with the failure to apply theory to the world and looking past step two). Neither does using the rape example. That analogy simply preys on our culture’s view on prostitution and other mores. If in another time or place; people wouldn’t look so harshly on said example.
My addressing my future employment was not for the purpose of debate, but seeing as this is my blog, I added it because some readers inquired about my perspective on this issue, and I figured that others who know me would be interested as well. I remain unclear on what is meant by “looking past step two,” and I can only postulate that it is somehow an argument that the ends can justify the means. As for the rape example, it remains pertinent, regardless of the prevailing cultural views on sex because it addresses the central question of our debate: whether or not it’s right to force someone to keep a promise.
In conclusion, who is to say what I can or cannot chose to do or give up? This is the nature of contractual law. Both parties giving up something of value for something they happen to find more valuable. The clauses or timeframe of said contract have no bearing in this debate. Simply that, at the time of signing, both parties accepted the terms. For good or for bad Dan, I and most of you have done the same at some time. The fact that we gave up something whether it be money, goods, time or a combination means little. And to renege is theft on some level. However, the greatest litmus test is to turn the contract around and play devil’s advocate. And here is where Dan’s argument meets its greatest failure: One party is always cheated when the other doesn’t come through.
Jay’s conclusion makes clear that he does not recognize the transfer of property as the key to understanding just contract. Without a transfer of property, as in the case of a promise, reneging cannot be theft because theft requires the possession of someone else’s just property. In cases where property has been conditionally transferred dependent on the fulfillment of some action, the property should be returned if the contract is not fulfilled. However, in no case, is force ever justified to make someone keep a promise. Nevertheless, this is the standard operating procedure for those comprising the “Department of Defense.”
Ultimately, Jay is correct in implying that, apart from initiating the use of force, nobody should be able to justifiably say what a person “can or cannot chose to do or give up.” If this is his belief, I wonder why he does not see the contradiction in then arguing that I should be forced to continue to labor for someone else? Is slavery not one of the worst examples of forcing someone else’s action?
Today 20 July is the first time in awhile that I have checked in on the progress of Dan's application. I have been very busy on the other side of the coin working to get the Iraqi Army and Police to the point of being able to secure the city of Mosul without outside assistence.
ReplyDeleteI personally find it ironic that about the time Dan was having and issue with war I was having an issue with the lack there of. Every bit of actions that myself and my fellow Infantrymen have been invalved in over the past half a year have been directed at peace and not war. Not only have we been little more than baby sitters for a youngster security force but as of June 30th of this year we are no longer combat soldiers. Hmmm... go figure. I havn't been fighting a war since I left Baquba Iraq Dec 07 2007.
I have read much of what Jay is accounting, though I must admit it was rather hastily done and I was catching up on over two months worth of posts, but I think Jay and I view things rather similarly and I agree with much that he says. I also don't think this comes as a shock to Mr. Lakemacher in any way shape or form.
I recognize that both Jay and Dan seem to be better at this arguing thing than I am. I have devoted the past three years of my life to other things besides study and although booklearning is something that I enjoy with all of my heart I recognize that I just don't have the attention span for it all of the time. However, I do understand Jay's attempt to bring the "real world equasion" to life.
The way I figure it (with my simple infantry mind) when you make an agreement for anything weather it be legally on paper or verbally agreed upon with a spit on hand shake, a man's word is his honor. Weather the contract can be legally inforced or not this is an agreement entered into by two people or a person and an organization or some form thereof...
Internet time is up... I'll post a continuance later
Okay, now I'm back to finish what I started...
ReplyDeleteWhile bumming around the BN Arms shop not too long ago and receiving yet more informal schooling on gun smithing from one SPC Jeremy Greenwald, we somehow found ourselves on the topic of marriage.
He mentioned that he and his wife, Robyn, had more than their fair share of issues tougher than what he figgured most married couples go through. He made an interesting observation, the spirit of which I think is somewhat applicable. He said that nowhere in normal wedding vows will you ever find an "til infedelity do us part". Most if not all vows invalve sigining a contrace, if you will, to love the other person unconditionally.
Regardless of what was thought at the time of the sigining, I think a contract is binding. Now perhaps it is good that the Military has a loop hole for guys like Dan to get out (how very gracious), but if you sign I figure your honor bound to fill your time. I can't call Dan a coward because I don't think he is, but I think that his experiance in the world of military action is rather small.
I also feel it is important to point out that were Dan in my shoes I don't think he would hesitate to kill in order to prevent harm from befalling his soldiers... but as long as we are looking at contracts just because you suddenly see something as differnt or wrong doesn't mean you should not fufill your word. Nor can the military be looked at as a form of slavery. Lets face it... there are parts of every job that we can't stand. Most of the guys I have run into that are "training against their will" simply are uncomfortable dealing with a certain ammount of pain in their life. Life is pain. Grow up!
Nick wrote:
ReplyDelete"just because you suddenly see something as differnt or wrong doesn't mean you should not fufill your word."
I wonder if he understands the evil ramifications of his statement. For instance, would Nick have told a Nazi soldier that it didn't matter if he came to see see Hitler's "Final Solution" as genocide because, after all, this soldier had given his word to be in the German Army?
Although I'm not forcibly a part of an organization that is currently involved in genocide, the United States military does continue to murder people on a regular basis. Since this is true, why would it not be the right/just/moral action to not only separate myself from this evil, but to try and stop it?
To answer your qurry... there were many German soldiers who did their duty to their fellow soldiers and their country regardless of the fact that they knew Hitler was wrong (Odd Dan should mention this, I was just discussing this with a good friend and mentor, Charles Morris the other day). Just because Hitler was horribly immoral and without honor does not mean the normal German soldier out on the line was without morals or was dishonorable.
ReplyDeleteWe remember Hitler's attempt to wipe out the Jews, it made a lasting impression on us, but I have noticed many seem to forget the WWII was so much larger than just one fanatic killing off the Jews.
As the allies pushed toward Germany many German soldiers were fighting for their families un aware of how their childre, wives, mothers, and sisters were to treated by what was turning into an invading army. Believe me, on the line the fact that their leader was systematically trying to destroy an entire culture was not even in their heads and even if a soldier thought about the fact that Hitler was fighting this war for horribly immoral reasons he as a soldier was not just fighting for his comrades but his family, his country, and the right for survival.
As Charles pointed out and I would have to agree, WWII was an amazing example of honorable men fighting honorable men on all sides and as a result for the most part the unwritten respect for fellow warriors was upheld and understood. A soldier in the German army filled his contract.
I am also reminded of an old story. During the expansion of Christianity throughout the Roman Empire there became an issue with Roman leaders questioning Christian soldiers ability to kill "enemies of Rome". Of course these "enemies of Rome" were fellow Christians who were being slain not because they were infact enemies of Rome but because they were Christian.
Chrsitian soldiers could have diserted as there was no loop hole in the Roman Army's contract like in ours, but they did not. They chose instead, both officers and men to follow the orders handed to them by their general; Walk out on a frozen lake and keep walking.
The ice was already begining to melt underneath their boots and they understood exactly what they were being ordered to do. They followed their orders. I personally believe such choices were correct. Perhaps Dan disagrees.
Ahh, limited internet time is a pain! To further expound...
ReplyDeleteIt would appear to me that the little tit for tat spat that is going on between Jay and Dan overlooks (in my mind.. perhaps I just missed it. This is possible) the idea that the contract Dan signed had written into it exactly what the government could do to him should he not fill out his time. Once you sign the agreement to be imprissioned should you not fufill your end of the bargin you cannot complain when they do so... and regardless of weather it is morally correct or not, the fact that you agreed to it before hand and signed a legal document to that effect gives the government every right to follow through should you choose to break your contract!
Now, in all honesty I cannot say what I mentioned in the above paragraph is exactly applicable here on account of the fact that we all (Dan, Jay, Myself) serve in a military where we are handed the option to get the hell out should we suddenly have a moral problem with it. This is an option that Dan is in the middle of taking thus avoiding imprissonment and other nastyness.
My issue with what my good friend is doing has vary little to do with the legal aspect of it and everything to do with the honor and the word of the man who signed the contract. It is my belief that a man's honor bound agreement to fufill his time in the military outweighs his legal one.
Now moving on... Jay brings up an interesting rough argument and it is one we all are acutely aware of I think. Jay is pulling out the, "The Army/Navy/Marines/Air Force has invested time and training in you son... you have an obligation to pay us back!" This always is an emotional argument more than a practical one. There is nothing on paper that says I need to spend more time in the Army should I suddenly pick up a slot for Sniper school. I could go to the school, go back to my unit and promptly ETS... tough luck on their part (snicker)! Movement of resorses is just the cost risk the military takes.
However, after signing a contract to serve in the military for X ammount of years a soldier is honor and duty bound to do so and this is even more the case if he has the ability to do his job better than others as long as he still has time on his contract.
As a team leader I have an unwritten responsibility to take care of my soldiers and be the best team leader I can so I can in turn give them every opertunity to be the best soldiers they can be. Now it just so happens that I made a verbal contract to my guys to do my best as a team leader and having said thus I am honorbound to fufill my end of the bargin. I didn't tell them, "Do your best and I will do my best" no, I told them "I will do my best."
I think that for a person to not try and do their best to live up to the rank on their chest for the ammount of time they signed on to do is breaking a silent honorbound contract. Again, I'm sure Dan's view is different then mine. I'm fairly sure Jay understands the jist of what I'm getting at.
To follow orders instead of doing what you know is right is not honorable. If it is, then I want nothing to do with honor. There is nothing good or right about man's inhumanity to man, carefully plotted out throughout the history of WWII. "Honorable" men killing "honorable" men means that they are killing honor.
ReplyDeleteBeyond that, no one has addressed an important point that I think Mr. Lakemacher touched upon, which is that he has apparently encountered many men who say that their recruiters lied to them. As far as voluntary contracts are concerned, this is yet another good reason for granting conscientious objector status.
What happens when you enter into a contract only to find out later on that the party you entered into the contract with lied to you? This is the problem currrently facing every "voluntary" soldier fighting this war. The lies of the previous administration, and the new lies coming out of the current administration, are legion. If you go to the FBI's webpage for "Most Wanted Terrorists," you will see ample evidence of these lies, right from the very start of this whole mess. Therefore, anyone who signs up with the government for this service after the initiation of hostilities has entered into a contract that ought to be null and void, since the government has willfully kept a great deal of information from each individual making that initially voluntary choice.
A contract based on lies is worthless, like the genocide that has now been unleashed.
I feel very badly for Mr. Lakemacher and N. Morris. I hope they both survive this war, and are able to learn more about freedom, truth, love and peace.
B.R. Merrick
I find B.R's post quite interesting. Here are my thoughts while reading it...
ReplyDeleteI couldn't agree more with the statement "To follow orders instead of doing what you know is right is not honorable", where in my post did I suggest that anybody followed orders knowing what they were doing was wrong? To follow an order that is immoral or illegal is wrong. The examples of fulfilling a military contract I gave indicate no immoral acts at all. The German soldiers are not Hitler and the Roman soldiers did their duty to Rome as well as their following their moral compass.
The idea that War is immoral is one that Dan and I have talked about at some length and ultimately it is the catalyst for this web page. I assert that War is not unnecessarily immoral and therefore I also assert that the world can have honorable warriors. There are correct moral choices made on the part of the warrior during conflict. I would also suggest that if somebody cannot bring themselves to believe that then they do not understand the nature of combat and thus have little or no right to comment on it.
I will agree that recruiters are at the bottom of the barrel and are a scummy lot right next to lawyers, politicians and used car salesmen. Can't tell you how many times I have heard the old joke... "Man if I ever meet that dirt bag that put me into the army I'm gonna blow his head off..." We laugh about it in the infantry, I'm sure that deep down some of my guys do feel a tad cheated. However, where recruiters can lie their head off... the paperwork cannot. Somebody that wants to fall back on the whole "My recruiter lied to me" thing should really get mad at themselves for not reading their contract and asking questions.
I don't know if B.R. knows first hand what is going on in in Iraq. What bothers me isn't so much the "lies of the administration" but rather how ignorant they are of what is going on over here in cities like Mosul.
Also it would appear that B.R. is making the suggestion that the reason people join the military is to support America and fight this war because they feel the need to do so based upon what our government has told us. Most of the guys I have ran into really honestly could care less about whatever the government said or is saying. Their reasons for joining had little to do with outside political factors. I joined the Army, not the state department.
I wasn't aware of any genocide that has been unleashed. I don't mean to be overly rude but the mention of this seems to be a statement of feeling and emotions and apparent lack of understanding of what is going on in Iraq and Afghanistan.
I am a firm believer that if absolute peace could indeed exist here in the human condition then it would have already presented its self. Weather war is immoral or not it is a fact of our existence. Therefore peace cannot be maintained without the deterrence of power.
N. Morris stated that he isn't concerned with the lies of either administration, and that he is more concerned with what is going on in cities like Mosul. What is going on in cities like Mosul is, according to JustForeignPolicy.org, nothing short of genocide, as the dead from this war now total approximately 1.3 million.
ReplyDeleteThe point I am trying to make is that this war is a lie from the start. That is not a statement of "feeling and emotions," but fact. Just go to the FBI's webpage for Most Wanted Terrorists, as I mentioned in my previous comment. When a man makes a contract with someone whom he thinks is honest, then he discovers that the same man has been lying, he is not bound to that contract. The government is indeed lying to us about everything concerning this war. There are a lot of ordinary people involved in this mess, trying to do what's right. I used to think as they did. I feel very, very badly for them. I hope that the Internet, which has been invaluable for me and my progress away from falsehood and deception, will be increasingly available to those good people left in the armed services that can be salvaged.
In response to B.R.'s comments...
ReplyDeleteMuch of what I have witnessed here in Mosul (first hand) seems to be more of an economic class struggle then genocide. The all out ethnic cleansing that was going on under Sadam's rule was far worse at it was government calculated and systematic. Now much of what is going on is no more than nasty criminal activity that the Iraqi government must figure out how to deal with. The motivations for all sorts of horrible violence here in Iraq at the core of human emotions is the same fuel that burns the fires of crime and hatrid in our own country. The difference is that our government is much more stable.
Also, any contract that I sign is with the Army and not with the recruiter. I have never found an Army contract to outright lie. Now, how the government chooses to use the Army is another story and if the US Government is indeed misled then I understand that the military will more than likely find themselves in a less than honest situation. However, this has very little to do with any contract that is signed between the soldier and the military. In the event that the government chooses to use the military in the action of a less then honorable conflict then it is the duty of the officers and men in the armed forces to be as moral as possible given the situation. Moral and immoral acts are performed by the soldiers... at some point there is a personal choice to act. And in each situation there is a correct choice and an incorrect one.
At any rate, myself and the soldiers under me have not had a hand in nore will have a hand in any genocide on the part of the officers above me or the US Government. Any suggestion otherwise is purely ignorant. This is a first hand, no bull shit assessment of the situation strait out of Mosul Iraq.
Out of curiocity I wonder if B.R. would walk up to Michael Jordon and tell him that he doesn't know what he is talking about when it comes to the game of basketball.
I would certainly never tell Michael Jordan how to play basketball. But I'll tell anyone I meet that I am certain, as is Mr. Lakemacher, that war is immoral; that the United States government has been lying about the causes, nature, and purposes of this war from the very beginning; that they have misled more than a million men who signed up to fight at their dictates; that thousands of those men have died and thousands more have been scarred for life; that this war, and not Saddam's former monstrous rule, is directly responsible for the deaths of now more than 1 million innocent people; that the good intentions of some of the individuals currently serving in the military do not excuse nor lessen the evil that has happened. I will also tell anyone who will listen that Mr. Lakemacher should be free, under any sensible moral code, to change his mind about the contract he signed, and be let go from military service, the same as if N. Morris ever changes his mind.
ReplyDeleteAnd N. Morris, along with anyone else reading who agrees with him, should remember that just a few short years ago, I was in their camp. I repeat once more, all you have to do is go to the FBI's webpage for Most Wanted Terrorists and start reading. Eventually, you will probably change your mind and heart as I have. I sincerely hope that this change of heart happens soon, and when life is still yours for enjoying.
War is the ultimate human failure. War is a tool of barbarians, not of civilized men. No amount of personal or political considerations excusing its existence can change this fact. To claim and believe that the justifications for war and its willing participants can in any way be considered “honorable” is the ultimate in depravity.
ReplyDeleteOk, Dan and I have had some back and forth via email. I will try to address some of the points in those texts as well as the body of this blog as well as some of the comments.
ReplyDeleteMost importantly, I want to say that I apologize for the brevity of this. Dan, and this dialogue deserves more.
Dan got into me about my assertion about his being held to his contract by an assortment of means as being a threat. There is no way, in the English lexicon, which this fits. Simply asserting that someone should be held to something (that in this case they don’t agree with) isn’t a threat. It’s merely saying the same thing as “I think all rapists should be executed”. Am I threatening all rapists? No. It’s an opinion. The victim mentality that the “true libertarians” have borrowed from the race baiters has worn thin.
Basically, and it is an oversimplification, but one realizes or is ignorant of the terms of something they sign. The same goes for military, marriage or cell phone contracts. Wanting to change things after the fact doesn’t change the contract. What N. Morris seems to and I to assert is that it becomes a matter of personal integrity. That is, be man enough to realize that you might have made a poor decision. But unless the other party is willing to renegotiate, you should stick to it.
As for “Enlightened Rogue”: Really? You think that war is bad? Wow, you must be some scholar. You must feel smart not liking violence. You’ve got to be the first advocating this. Seriously, you’re the first total bitch that has come to this debate (at least from what I can tell the jury’s still out on Wes. But he has some original ideas). I guess the use of antibiotics represents the failure of medicine. Wishing against reality is the definition of ignorance. Men looking for humanity at a personal level in war doesn’t lessen honor at any level. It merely shows the ability of men on any side to see ideals in an adversary. And honestly, unless you’ve been in a situation similar to what your quote describes, I don’t expect you to understand. If you have, I do want to hear your opinion, but on a basic level, philosophers can’t grasp everything no matter how cool their quotes are.
I am not advocating war. I love war, I really do, I excel there. However, I am one of the very few that looks to run towards gunshots. Fortunately, I am in a tiny minority. (Whether my kind is a blessing or a curse is another argument) This is pure conjecture, but I would class N. Morris in a different group. He is, most likely, a realist that looks to protect him and his own. (P.S. N. do you know what an RFF is? Mosul was totally peaceful when we left, I know my buddies can fix it again)
I’m running long so I’ll address a couple things. I did step in shit when I didn’t research Rothbard. However, my assertions (relating to the excerpt that Dan provided) do hold true. Rothbard, in the excerpt doesn’t address the cost of a contract, only the price. And Dan’s assertion that: “I find this to be in direct contradiction to my condemnation and call for change to the very real world situation in which I’m forced to labor on behalf of others because of a past promise.” My assertion is that, while a military free world is a very nice idea (much like a disease free world where doctors aren’t needed). It is simply not realistic. Dan wishes that everyone in the US military would simply not show up for work. While I think the sentiment is nice. It wouldn’t work in Israel though. The idea sounds feasible in the relative comfort of the US. It would most assuredly be met with subjugation or death elsewhere in the world. That’s why the application of Dan’s ideas doesn’t work.
Again , I apologize for the brevity. I hope to be able to respond again in a week.
Cheers,
Jay
Enlightened Rogue, you are not the only "total bitch" to say, "War is the ultimate human failure." Other total bitches of note:
ReplyDeleteBishop John Bryson Chane
John Lewis, Ph.D
Brian Holden from onlineopinion.com
Prague.TV
In response to Jay:
ReplyDelete“War is bad” is obvious? It may sound obvious but we moral folks have to keep reminding the military boot lickers and Bush/Obama “bitches” of that simple truth. They seem to understand the concept in their brains but are too cowardly, soulless and depraved to live that truth.
Have I been in “this situation?” Of course not- because I had the good sense and moral upbringing to stay the fuck away- kind of like a child knows not to touch a hot stove. It’s a very elementary concept called “knowing better.” You think I should apologize for being wiser than you?
A lot of people who make idiotic, irresponsible mistakes (like enlisting in the military) try to rationalize their idiocy. Your whining comes across as baseless and weak. Daniel’s defense is well based in truth and logic. Daniel has also realized that he made a mistake enlisting. You don’t have the courage to admit that fact but instead, not only brag about “stepping in shit,” you seem to relish living in it, as well.
You love war? Then have at it and leave us moral, peaceful folks alone. At least have the decency to pay your own way, buy your own ammo and pay your own medical expenses if your crippled bag of bones manages to make it back.
You and the “terrorists” deserve each other. Feel free to kill each other as you brag how “honorable” you both are.
Ahh, Jay I was wondering when you'd make an appearance...
ReplyDeleteBy the way, Mosul is quite dorment by prior tour standards. The most action that I have seen out in sector this tour was shooting a rabid dog that thought it would try it's paw at taking down a member of my squad. I could use a good spat in all honesty. Not a whole lot going on here.
RFF is used for a few things on my end which one did you have in mind?
And I'm sure B.R. will call me a sick individual but I was not misled as to what I was going to be doing in this "war" (if you can even call it that now). I joined up to get shot at and promptly return fire. Yeah, I really feel lied to...
But seriously, all sarcasm and kidding aside... I don't care who says what about Iraq. I see how things are working here every single day. I would rather not hear how I am in the middle of a genocide when the extent of my killing has been a rabid dog.
Now B.R. Perhaps again I am a sick individual, but the way I figure it there are not innocent people. Nobody is innocent, we are all tainted. Now does this mean that everybody diserves to be killed by me? NO!! But we all have to pay the piper at somepoint.
Jay brings up yet another thought worthy of chewing on. How far does thinking take the human condition? At the end of the day war is still there. Plato wasn't joking when he said, "Only the dead have seen the end of war."
Regardless of how many lies the government told us when we jumped into Iraq... the people of Iraq were quite happy to see Sadam go and now are simply dealing with the pains of "oops you really mean we have to try really really hard to make a solid government for the people work?"
B.R. you keep telling me "oh just check out these websites and your eyes will be opened", I'm sitting here at the MWR on FOB Diamondback (Mosul) telling you a bit of what I see here in Iraq every single day and have for the past 6 months. To further some food for thought, this tour has been so quiet that I am able to sit at this computer and debate with you. Last tour I was busy slinging lead on a regular basis... massive improvement for anybody who wants to see an end to this thing and doesn't like the idea of non combatents getting their poor little heads blown off. How on earth could you have ever been in my camp?
There are really really really bad dudes in the world that just need to die, plain and simple. War may not be the answer, but passive resistence isn't passive, and a whole lot of people get killed there too believe me.
Oh yeah, and furthermore Rouge... what do you do when your dealing with barbarians then? Esspecilly when reasoning has failed, so have sit down talks... if the only thing people can understand is the club then you just have to have the bigger stick. Once they have broken their stick against yours you can finally sit down and say... "ok, do you see now why this is all kinda pointless?"
ReplyDeleteWar may indeed not be civil at all, however since when is humanity as a whole totally civil? I think this is a good qoute for you.
I know I had no hand in making this war, and I know I will make more sacrifices to-day than any of you to secure peace. - William Tecumseh Sherman
N. Morris,
ReplyDeleteI apologize for saying that we were ever in the same camp. When I was in favor of the war, I was trusting that we had been told the truth about what was going on, and that we were fighting for what was right. You have intimated that you aren't interested in doing a little research into the lies that we here at home have been fed from Day 1. That was never the camp that I was in.
As far as non-combatants "getting their poor little heads blown off," I'm not certain I have a reply. I think that's it for me and this thread.
In response to Mr. Norris-
ReplyDeleteI would counter that I have a much better view of what is going on because I AM further away- it gives you a better overall perspective of events. I also have access to nearly unlimited information from a variety of other’s perspectives and reporting. Your access to information is much more limited, controlled and prejudiced. Where will you find more controlling propaganda than the military?
How do I deal with barbarians? I presume you are referring to the Iraqis who are trying to kill you. Please be reminded that YOU folks were the ones who aggressively invaded these people’s sovereign country. YOU folks are the ones that have waged war against a state and people that never attacked or even threatened you. In the interest of accuracy and fairness (NOT to be name calling) that would make YOU the barbarian. You have absolutely no ground to stand on to defend yourself. The only honorable thing to do is pack up and leave.
It is quite fitting that you would quote a barbarian like Sherman- a “man” who murdered thousands of innocent, men, women, and children to satisfy the power lusts of demonic politicians. And he did this in his OWN COUNTRY, no less. Is that your next step?
Why lower yourself to the level of the enemy you claim to despise? I’m willing to bet you’re better than that.
Well E.R...
ReplyDeleteI think we all have strayed away from the meat of Dan and Jay's intellectual battle in this post and we are now at the point of debating other things. I think this is my last posting on this thread, I'm sure we'll be meeting on the field of battle later.
I think that you couldn't be more wrong in thinking that you have a better view on the situation here in Iraq than I do. You bring up one very good observation that I actually agree with. Is information in the military controlled and biased? Yes it is. However, the real question there is does the Army's blatant bias control my view on events? I don't think so.
I have worked with the Iraqi people from day to day. I have spent the majority of my time actively walking the streets of Mosul and before that Baquba. On my end I see how things work before even the army has the ability to spin things. When I am speaking I am speaking from personal experience and the experiences of the soldiers around me derived from 21 months spent in this country. If I accept the personal experiences of other soldiers in my company who have been over here longer than I we are looking at a collective total of 36 months spent observing and working with the Iraqis.
Any information (no matter how vast the pool) that you have to make your assumptions about the country in which I am now stationed is filtered through the eyes of first, the military and second whatever information teller you are receiving the information from. That is plenty of bias right there. Not to mention that few people in the army have worked as much outside of the wire as I have leaving any information that they have gathered about this situation to be filtered before it gets to them and then before it gets to you. Obversely I have access to the Internet meaning what ever information you can pull from that I too can pull. And of course nobody can really trust what is being said on CNN as well as other news agencies. You think the military is biased... I don't even think the military can touch the amount of bias our news agencies have to offer.
Furthermore, your statements lead me to assume that you have never seen the face of combat. You say you avoid it because you view it as childish and you believe that you are above it. Do you have any intimate dealings with truly fucked up individuals? Have you ever had to witness how purely evil men are to their fellow men? And have you ever found yourself in a situation where you were fighting for your survival against somebody else who will stop at nothing until you are dead? Until you have answered yes and given clear proof to the aforementioned questions, then you really have no grounds at all to believe that there is no room for violence of any kind in this world. Even Dan will tread lightly on such issues because his experience of this current “war” is very small and he knows it. Debating the theory of war is possible not having seen wars face, debating the actions in a certain war are not until you have seen it. You are either part of the problem, part of the solution, or part of the scenery when it comes down to action. Dan believes that he is either part of the problem, or part of the solution and he is taking the necessary steps on his part to either get the fuck out of the way or push towards a solution. I have a personal problem with what he is doing because I cannot see it as being honorable. Be that as it may. You appear to be part of the scenery and continue to make assertions you have little idea about. That is why Jay growled at you. It's also why I'm a tad annoyed.
Continuance...
ReplyDeleteWhen I was inquiring as to how you deal with barbarians I was meaning anybody from the dumbass who tries to kill you and steal your sneakers to the sick minded people in the world who love killing people. Do you honestly think you can reason with everybody? I have witnessed that there are inherently evil people in this world who are nothing but a threat to mankind. The only way to deal with these people is to kill them.
I try and avoid political debate simply because everybody ends up “stepping in shit” as Jay would say. However since you seem to not be able to get your mind off of this current political debacle... A country is a legal term. I could care less if Iraq was/is a sovereign nation. What is more important to me is the fact that Sadam Hussain was a nut job killing scores of people for the hell of it. The dude needed to be waxed. Iraqis agree that he needed to be killed. They loved the idea of his evil being being put down. Sadam would have killed scores more people than the US Army ever cared to destroy. Believe you me when I say the body count now is much less then it has been, that we (the US Army) is not killing people who are not a threat to non violent folks, and that the people of Iraq on the street (regardless of the political rhetoric of their politicians), are quite happy for our assistance because we represent safety.
I have never read, more honestly skimmed, such a banter of words that I wonder if aren't really a picture of how wars start. Bright, capable, empassioned, thought filled 'men' who can't and won't see each others view points as valid and suddenly the banter grows to a WAR of words. This same WAR of words at some point grows, A hits B, B hits A back and we find ourselves involved in "conflict"... Progressively over time worsening, power and control the new hunger...war. Do any of you see it? Some of your comments are respectful but the dialogue in some cases is beginning to breakdown and be replaced by jabs and emotions leading not the head. You're straying from the topic by getting caught up in specifics rather than principles. Want to change the world, start with yourselves. (bp)
ReplyDeleteMy question is, who gets to decide who is evil and thus deserving of death? N. Morris, it would seem, believes that this should be the United States government specifically, or Western Civilization in general. That makes us no different from the "terrorists" then, who used their own morality to argue that we Americans are evil and should be killed. We are no different from them and it's a cycle of violence that sadly will never end. The statement "I could care less if Iraq was/is a sovereign nation" is also very telling. Al-Qaeda had the same lack of respect for our national sovereignty (and our "legal terms," I loved the use of that phrase too; since when have soldiers ever cared about the law, be it our own, other nation's, or international?) when they attacked us on 9/11 and never doubted the rightness of what they were doing, just like N. Morris believes that he is justified in carrying out his mission of peace in Iraq. I am so sorry that things have gotten so boring for you in Mosul that the only thing you've been able to kill so far is a rabid dog. I sincerely hope then, for your sake naturally, that the barbarians pick up their insurgency again so you can take out your bloodlust on the brown-skinned infidels or better yet have the chance to blow the poor little head off some noncombatant. Nobody wins medals of honor to wear proudly on their uniform by killing canines, so I hope things turn around for you there. In the meantime, thank you so much for defending my freedom against sick puppies half way around the world. As for "bp," I thought you supported war because it is biblical and thus you would approve of the war of words that has been fought on this thread? Or, do you only support wars that use guns and bombs which actually kill people but find rhetoric and verbal sparring to be too un-Christlike?
ReplyDeleteMatt Lakemacher